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A Lesson in Poker Etiquette

In this tournament, I learned a valuable lesson in poker etiquette. Only I’m not sure what etiquette is called for in the situation. And it probably is more of a strategy issue than etiquette. Anyway, it was the first time another player actually swore at me.

We pick up this tournament on the last hand played out on two tables. 

PokerStars Game #3069157581: Tournament #15168568, Hold'em No Limit
Level V (75/150) - 2005/11/15 - 21:00:17 (ET)
Table '15168568 2' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: CardVixen (1160 in chips)
Seat 2: Honda450ex (1350 in chips)
Seat 5: kiadriver (685 in chips)
Seat 8: givmemonet (1155 in chips)
Seat 9: JoseRijo27 (2335 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JoseRijo27 [T♣ A♠]

givmemonet: posts small blind 75
JoseRijo27: posts big blind 150
CardVixen: calls 150
Honda450ex: folds
kiadriver: calls 150
givmemonet: calls 75
JoseRijo27: checks

*** FLOP *** [K♣ 9♣ A♣]
givmemonet: bets 300
JoseRijo27: raises 300 to 600
CardVixen: folds
kiadriver: folds
givmemonet: raises 405 to 1005 and is all-in
JoseRijo27: calls 405
*** TURN *** [K♣ 9♣ A♣] [J♣]
*** RIVER *** [K♣ 9♣ A♣ J♣] [7♦]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
givmemonet: shows [5♣ A♦] (a flush, Ace high)
JoseRijo27: shows [T♣ A♠] (a flush, Ace high - Ten higher)
JoseRijo27 collected 2610 from pot

Sweet! The older the player, the bigger the kicker. And I actually got a flush! So now I’m in fourth place out of eight players, with plenty of chips to work with. A few hands later, I’m up to $5500 in chips. I feel a trip to the money stand coming on!

With six players left, my troubles begin. The player kiadriver, who was down to last $155 a few hands ago, is doing his best Jason Voorhees impression. He simply will not die. 

PokerStars Game #3069302968: Tournament #15168568, Hold'em No Limit
Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/15 - 21:14:56 (ET)
Table '15168568 2' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Honda450ex (750 in chips)
Seat 4: jamieo84 (1260 in chips)
Seat 5: kiadriver (485 in chips)
Seat 6: Fat_Pigs (12045 in chips)
Seat 7: YURMUSH (7720 in chips)
Seat 9: JoseRijo27 (4740 in chips)
Honda450ex: posts the ante 25
jamieo84: posts the ante 25
kiadriver: posts the ante 25
Fat_Pigs: posts the ante 25
YURMUSH: posts the ante 25
JoseRijo27: posts the ante 25
YURMUSH: posts small blind 200
JoseRijo27: posts big blind 400

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JoseRijo27 [K♥ 2♣]

Honda450ex: raises 325 to 725 and is all-in
jamieo84: folds
kiadriver: calls 460 and is all-in
Fat_Pigs: calls 725
YURMUSH: calls 525
JoseRijo27: calls 325
*** FLOP *** [A♦ 9♥ 6♠]
YURMUSH: checks
JoseRijo27: bets 400
Fat_Pigs: folds
YURMUSH: folds

I don’t think Fat_Pigs or YURMUSH has an Ace, so I bet and push them out of the side pot. Yippee for me, right? 

*** TURN *** [A♦ 9♥ 6♠] [A♣]
*** RIVER *** [A♦ 9♥ 6♠ A♣] [T♠]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JoseRijo27: shows [K♥ 2♣] (a pair of Aces)
Honda450ex: shows [4♥ Q♥] (a pair of Aces - lower kicker)
Fat_Pigs said, "retarded bet, jose"
JoseRijo27 collected 1060 from side pot
kiadriver: shows [A♥ 8♥] (three of a kind, Aces)
kiadriver collected 2450 from main pot

Apprarently, Fat_Pigs didn’t like my play. Somehow, in this Bizarro Turbo Tournament, a bet that increases my stack by 310 chips is ‘retarded’. I had no idea what he meant. So I figured he was just mad because I semi-bluffed him out of a pot. But he was chastising me for something different. 

Fat_Pigs said, "see jose,  YUR bet, but he actually had something"
JoseRijo27 said, "I'm going to have a N under my name, now."
Fat_Pigs said, "well, at least learn poker etiquette - that's all i'm asking"

His theory was that when a player goes all-in late in a tournament, you want as many callers possible against him on the end. So everyone else should just check it around and hope that someone beats him. The side pot is just gravy. Before this tournament, I considered the all-in’ers to be bystanders. But Fat_Pigs wanted the rest of us to gang-tackle them. 

PokerStars Game #3069359021: Tournament #15168568, Hold'em No Limit
Level IX (300/600) - 2005/11/15 - 21:20:40 (ET)
Table '15168568 2' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 5: kiadriver (950 in chips)
Seat 6: Fat_Pigs (9835 in chips)
Seat 7: YURMUSH (11840 in chips)
Seat 9: JoseRijo27 (4375 in chips)
kiadriver: posts the ante 50
Fat_Pigs: posts the ante 50
YURMUSH: posts the ante 50
JoseRijo27: posts the ante 50
Fat_Pigs: posts small blind 300
YURMUSH: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JoseRijo27 [Q♣ A♥]
JoseRijo27: calls 600
kiadriver: raises 300 to 900 and is all-in
Fat_Pigs: folds
YURMUSH: calls 300
JoseRijo27: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [4♠ 4♣ J♥]
YURMUSH: checks
JoseRijo27: checks
*** TURN *** [4♠ 4♣ J♥] [7♣]
YURMUSH: checks
JoseRijo27: bets 1200
YURMUSH: folds
*** RIVER *** [4♠ 4♣ J♥ 7♣] [9♣]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JoseRijo27: shows [Q♣ A♥] (a pair of Fours)
kiadriver: shows [J♠ A♠] (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
Fat_Pigs said, "dumbass"
kiadriver collected 3200 from pot
Fat_Pigs said, "again"

Now, I’m a dumbass. For making someone else fold when I thought my hand was good enough to win. After a few more snide comments from Fat_Pigs and a few more wins for kiadriver, I was gone. A humiliating fourth place showing. But I at least learned to consider the all-in check-through. 

PokerStars Game #3069385860: Tournament #15168568, Hold'em No Limit
Level IX (300/600) - 2005/11/15 - 21:23:24 (ET)
Table '15168568 2' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 5: kiadriver (4100 in chips)
Seat 6: Fat_Pigs (9785 in chips)
Seat 7: YURMUSH (10790 in chips)
Seat 9: JoseRijo27 (2325 in chips)
kiadriver: posts the ante 50
Fat_Pigs: posts the ante 50
YURMUSH: posts the ante 50
JoseRijo27: posts the ante 50
YURMUSH: posts small blind 300
JoseRijo27: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JoseRijo27 [4♠ 7♦]
kiadriver: folds
Fat_Pigs: raises 1200 to 1800
YURMUSH: folds
JoseRijo27: raises 475 to 2275 and is all-in
Fat_Pigs: calls 475
*** FLOP *** [2♠ A♣ 5♦]
*** TURN *** [2♠ A♣ 5♦] [Q♦]
*** RIVER *** [2♠ A♣ 5♦ Q♦] [K♣]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JoseRijo27: shows [4♠ 7♦] (high card Ace)
Fat_Pigs: shows [J♣ Q♠] (a pair of Queens)
Fat_Pigs collected 5050 from pot
Fat_Pigs said, "bye dumbass"

Last Updated: Fri, 16 Dec 2005

Feedback

Reggie Bush wrote at 2005-11-23 18:43:

That poker ettiquette is BS. Your mistake was not bluffing everyone out of the side pot - that was fine. The fact that you bluffed people out of the pot was good. Your mistake was even being in this pot with a mismatched K/2 against 3 other people. Obviously you are already at a disadvantage because one of those 3 will have the ace and all three have a better second card than a 2. That, my friend, is what makes you retarded.

Check it Down wrote at 2006-02-02 14:52:

When you're on the bubble or in the money and have a short-stack all-in in a multi-way pot, it IS correct poker etiquette to check it down unless a player has a VERY strong hand. Betting at an empty side-pot on a bluff is ridiculous in such a circumstance and is a true sign of a beginner or novice. By doing so you are improving the short-stacks chances of winning and continuing in the event. Most people learn this in their first few weeks of playing.

Keith Carangelo wrote at 2006-02-02 16:33:

Hi Check it Down. Yes, I was very green when I played this tournament (and I still am). If I played it today, I would've checked down both pots unless I improved.

Alex wrote at 2007-05-18 10:48:

I did exactly what you did about 30 min ago at a LIVE SST with 4 players left. I'd been chatting with the guy to my right all night and he was giving me advice. Then the short stack to my left goes all in (post flop), he calls and i raise (mainly because I feel insecure playing live because im new to the game and as a result tend to do stupid things). So anyway i happened to win the pot, and he gets angry. For the next 2 hands he's repeatedly explaining to me why I'm a tool.

The beauty part is about 5 hands later a very similar situation arises and he kindly points out to me that i should NOT rise. I say 'sure, I won't' but then I do. I'd like to think I did again it to piss him off more because he wouldn't let it go the last time (the first time was a legitimate mistake). Fact is, I did it again purely by mistake (i was so tired and had a massive stack).

That guy went from wanting to be friendly and help me out to cursing me under his breath when he left a few hands later. Honestly I didn't mean to do any of it. I'm just a little green and wasn't paying much attention.

But now that I look back and properly see what I did...I'm laughing my ass off.

Grade b wrote at 2011-10-10 21:46:

I had someone tell me the same thing today, so i'm searching poker etiquette. Actually i have come to the conculsion that this is not good Etiquette and in fact is against the rules (collusion)

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